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Old Apr 19, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54   #1
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Default Should the 4/17 update be permanent?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arena Net
This month's update is unique. It is a "temporary tournament update" targeted at the final cash-prize tournament, which will take place at the end of April. The skill changes are temporary and will be in effect for only two weeks. They are all geared toward addressing the most immediate issues with Guild Battles.

In order to reduce the possible negative impact on PvE play, we will be reverting the changes on May 1st. For future tournaments, we aim to focus on changes that will not impact PvE play at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skill Changes
Assassin
Assassin's Remedy: increased Energy cost to 10.

Blind is a staple prevention method against Shadow Stepping spikes, but Assassin's Remedy passively bypasses that counter. The condition is removed before the attack even hits, which nullifies well-timed Blindness in a self-sufficient, "fire-and-forget" manner. The higher Energy cost will add a little Energy pressure, especially to Dervish/Assassin combinations, and limit the frequency of their spikes.

Mesmer
Hex Breaker: changed skill type back to stance.
Fragility: decreased Energy cost to 5.
Fevered Dreams: decreased recharge to 8 seconds.
Chaos Storm: decreased Energy cost to 5.
Energy Surge: increased Energy drained to 1..10; decreased damage per Energy to 9.
Energy Burn: increased Energy drained to 1..10; decreased damage per Energy to 9.

To support additional Energy attrition (and allow teams to break down overwhelming defenses), Energy Surge and Energy Burn both get increases to the amount of Energy they drain, and Chaos Storm gets a significant cost decrease. We've also improved condition spreading, especially from Necromancers, so we wanted to support out-of-profession skills that combo particularly well with conditions. Fevered Dreams' recharge comes down and Fragility's cost is reduced to make these hexes more easily spreadable. Finally, Hex Breaker and Mantra of Concentration were too powerful when used together, so we've changed Hex Breaker back to a stance.

Necromancer:
Dark Pact: increased damage to 10..70.

Dark Pact's damage was not worth its cost. We've raised that damage by more than 20 at the high end, hopefully making this skill a viable way to inflict damage at a Health cost.

Elementalist:
Blinding Surge: decreased recharge to 3 seconds; decreased Blindness duration to 1..5 seconds.
Ward Against Melee: decreased duration to 1..18 seconds; no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.
Lightning Orb: this skill no longer applies Cracked Armor.
Glyph of Concentration: decreased number of spells affected to 1.
Shockwave: increased casting time to 1 second.
Ward Against Harm: no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.
Ward Against Elements: no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.

Wards, when used during Victory or Death, gave teams too much irremovable defense for their NPCs. The positional play of these skills also matters much less in the final standoff at the flag stand (because everything clumps together), so we've disabled their effect on Guild Battle NPCs. Lightning Orb's Cracked Armor component made it too easy to compress skill bars, which made other options like Shell Shock obsolete. In response, we removed the Cracked Armor component of Lightning Orb. Teleporting Elementalists using Shockwave could quickly annihilate targets on a spike in an undetectable way, which made them very difficult to deal with. We've increased the casting time here to prevent that particular combination. Finally, Glyph of Concentration enabled caster spikes too efficiently, so it now prevents interruption on just a single spell.

Monk:
Aegis: increased Energy cost to 15.

Aegis, despite all of its drawbacks, continues to be a very powerful defensive skill that helps draw games out to Victory or Death. We've added additional Energy pressure here, aiming to bring it more in balance.

Warrior:
Disarm: decreased time that attack skills are disabled to 0..3 seconds; increased recharge to 20.

Disarm's ability to lock out adrenaline, essentially preventing a character from doing much of anything, was both overpowered and frustrating. We've limited how frequently this skill can be used. When properly timed, it can still be effective without completely removing an opponent from the game.

Ritualist:
Flesh of My Flesh: increased recharge to 10 seconds.
Death Pact Signet: increased activation time to 4 seconds.
Ancestors' Rage: increased casting time to 1 second.
Splinter Weapon: increased recharge to 8 seconds.
Recuperation: no longer affects Guild Battle NPCs.
Life: no longer affects Guild Battle NPCs.
Pure Was Li Ming: no longer affects Guild Battle NPCs.
Displacement: no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.
Shelter: no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.

Flesh of my Flesh and Death Pact Signet's downsides were not harsh enough for their effect. These fast-casting, fast-recharging resurrections could be seamlessly integrated into a defensive build, with the Health sacrifice and possibility of caster death easily mitigated, making these skills too powerful. The additional recharge limits how fast a team can recover from multiple deaths. Ancestors' Rage and Splinter Weapon have trivialized pre-VoD NPC advantage by making it easy to slaughter NPCs at the stand during VoD. To limit their impact, we've increased the casting time of Ancestors' Rage and increased the recharge of Splinter Weapon. Defensive Spirits and bundle items, like Elementalist wards, were too effective at providing irremovable defense for NPCs at VoD, so they no longer protect NPCs in Guild Battles.

Dervish:
Mystic Sweep: increased activation time to 1 second.
Eremite's Attack: increased activation time to 1 second.

The most deadly Dervish spikes revolve around fast-activation attack skills combined with Assassin teleportation skills. We've normalized the activations on Mystic Sweep and Eremite's Attack to decrease overall scythe spike potential.

Paragon:
Song of Restoration: increased recharge to 30 seconds.
Ballad of Restoration: increased recharge to 30 seconds.
Harrier's Toss: increased activation time to 1 second.

Song of Restoration and Ballad of Restoration continue to provide too much healing overall, especially coming from a high-armor profession. Harrier's Toss allowed Paragons to participate in the spike (thus allowing them to fit more defense on their skill bar) as well as maximize Splinter Weapon's already-powerful effect, so we've reduced the activation speed to limit these issues.
I propose that the update should be permanent.

My first point is that these changes are simply too important to GvG balance to make them temporary. The removal of the webs of passive defense make this game great. Mesmers were buffed to have more e-denial ob monks that will not be able to maintain for 20 minutes. This is a good thing. People are supposed to die in gvg. Why would you tempt us with it simply to take it away?

My second point is that the reasons behind making it temporary just don't add up. A-net says that these changes effect PvE too much. I simply don't see it. Most of the time PvE players use full teams of Ursan anyways.
1) I've never seen anyone use ele skills in PvE except AoE fire.
2) Monks in PvE dont use aegis... they use Healer's Boon + seed of life + healing seed.
3) No one uses motivation paras in pve... they use imba-gons with PvE-only shouts.
4) Ritualists are exclusively used for resto heals and communing spirits.
5) Dervishes dont need to spike in PvE.
6) Mesmer AoE skills GOT BUFFED which is what PvE-ers have been crying for.
--> Literally, the only thing that this update does that effects PvE is nerf hard rez a bit. No PvE-er is going to start crying that their hard rez got nerfed a bit. A-net needs to stop worrying about PvE. PvE is easy -- it has always been easy -- it will always be easy! No amount of skill nerfs is going to change that.

Last edited by Brian the Gladiator; Apr 19, 2008 at 08:56 PM // 20:56..
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
My second point is that the reasons behind making it temporary just don't add up. A-net says that these changes effect PvE too much. I simply don't see it. Most of the time PvE players use full teams of Ursan anyways.
1) I've never seen anyone use ele skills in PvE except AoE fire.
2) Monks in PvE dont use aegis... they use Healer's Boon + seed of life + healing seed.
3) No one uses motivation paras in pve... they use imba-gons with PvE-only shouts.
4) Ritualists are exclusively used for resto heals and communing spirits.
5) Dervishes dont need to spike in PvE.
6) Mesmer AoE skills GOT BUFFED which is what PvE-ers have been crying for.
--> Literally, the only thing that this update does that effects PvE is nerf hard rez a bit. No PvE-er is going to start crying that their hard rez got nerfed a bit. A-net needs to stop worrying about PvE. PvE is easy -- it has always been easy -- it will always be easy! No amount of skill nerfs is going to change that.
You better not be pointing at ME on those 1-6 points there!

Anyway, I think these updates should be perm.
No point in doing that and reverting it a few weeks after...
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
My second point is that the reasons behind making it temporary just don't add up. A-net says that these changes effect PvE too much. I simply don't see it. Most of the time PvE players use full teams of Ursan anyways.
1) I've never seen anyone use ele skills in PvE except AoE fire.
2) Monks in PvE dont use aegis... they use Healer's Boon + seed of life + healing seed.
3) No one uses motivation paras in pve... they use imba-gons with PvE-only shouts.
4) Ritualists are exclusively used for resto heals and communing spirits.
5) Dervishes dont need to spike in PvE.
6) Mesmer AoE skills GOT BUFFED which is what PvE-ers have been crying for.
--> Literally, the only thing that this update does that effects PvE is nerf hard rez a bit. No PvE-er is going to start crying that their hard rez got nerfed a bit. A-net needs to stop worrying about PvE. PvE is easy -- it has always been easy -- it will always be easy! No amount of skill nerfs is going to change that.
General assumptions ftl.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
A-net needs to stop worrying about PvE.
You know as a pve player I had no problems with your request right up till you show this ignorant attitude. So lets hope that Anet keeps on worrying about pve now instead. Seems to me that's where all the money is coming from anyway.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator




I propose that the update should be permanent.

My first point is that these changes are simply too important to GvG balance to make them temporary. The removal of the webs of passive defense make this game great. Mesmers were buffed to have more e-denial ob monks that will not be able to maintain for 20 minutes. This is a good thing. People are supposed to die in gvg. Why would you tempt us with it simply to take it away?

My second point is that the reasons behind making it temporary just don't add up. A-net says that these changes effect PvE too much. I simply don't see it. Most of the time PvE players use full teams of Ursan anyways.
1) I've never seen anyone use ele skills in PvE except AoE fire.
2) Monks in PvE dont use aegis... they use Healer's Boon + seed of life + healing seed.
3) No one uses motivation paras in pve... they use imba-gons with PvE-only shouts.
4) Ritualists are exclusively used for resto heals and communing spirits.
5) Dervishes dont need to spike in PvE.
6) Mesmer AoE skills GOT BUFFED which is what PvE-ers have been crying for.
--> Literally, the only thing that this update does that effects PvE is nerf hard rez a bit. No PvE-er is going to start crying that their hard rez got nerfed a bit. A-net needs to stop worrying about PvE. PvE is easy -- it has always been easy -- it will always be easy! No amount of skill nerfs is going to change that.
Do you sterotype real people like this as well. Your statements are just an ignorant generalization and should be disregarded by all.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11   #6
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no
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfaile
Do you sterotype real people like this as well. Your statements are just an ignorant generalization and should be disregarded by all.
It's not an ignorant generalization when it's true.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfaile
Do you sterotype real people like this as well. Your statements are just an ignorant generalization and should be disregarded by all.
QFT.

Generalizing makes a negative impact on your health.

/Not signed.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16   #9
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2 words, "Splinter Weapon". Change it back.

/PullEraserAndRemoveSignatures
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkWasp
2 words, "Splinter Weapon". Change it back.

/PullEraserAndRemoveSignatures
Just out of curiosity, how does this extra 3 seconds effect you that much?
I didn't find it that hard of a nerf.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:20 PM // 21:20   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lutz
It's not an ignorant generalization when it's true.
12 characters
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23   #12
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Letme just take a moment to put some input on the skills that were nerfed.

In one week from today, a Monthly Automated tournament will take place resulting in the highest real world cash prizes since the last GWWC. (No its not alot but thats not the point)

If you take a moment to just analyze the compilation of builds that have been nerfed, you will see why ANET has decided to do what it has done recently.

Elementalist, Paragon, Monk, and hard rezzing were a HUGE part in [rawr] spike. If you even WATCH high end gvgs, let alone the monthly tournaments themselves... You will find that [rawr] has won numerous times with the same build. Everyone knows that they run [rawr] spike, yet for MONTHS and MONTHS no one has dared to counter it. This update seems have a significant purpose to prevent any team from winning with rawr-spike this coming monthly. ESPECIALLY since the prizes have been doubled.

Other things to take into consideration.

Shockwave got hit A BIT (still runable but not as instant of a spike). ANET does not want to see that spike do well in the MAT.

Assassin spike got hit A BIT. It is still runable but you need more finesse. A little energy pressure from remedy and slower activation times on eremites/mystics decrease its spike speed a TINY bit.

Upto this point, the game has been FAIRLY balanced, and well maintained. The gimmicks that have come up since the last update, have been addressed fairly quickly and fairly well. Gimmicks are still runable, but to the point it gives the opposing team an opportunity to showcase their skill and stop the spike.



On another note: This doesn't affect PvE a whole lot. I assume its a cover up to outright nerf [rawr]. But that is something ANET will publicly deny. Condi builds might start coming up. And the only thing that did change PvE was Lightning Orb being nerfed. Now people can do pve without cracked armor getting spammed on them! Which doesnt affect pve too harshly.

One more thing to keep in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANET
Aegis, despite all of its drawbacks, continues to be a very powerful defensive skill that helps draw games out to Victory or Death.

But for a full list of developer comments on the recent and temporary update, look here:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Devel...dates/20080417

~Motoko
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfaile
Do you sterotype real people like this as well. Your statements are just an ignorant generalization and should be disregarded by all.
just what i was thinking
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26   #14
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Seeing as some nerfs are unnecessary or just in the wrong direction (hear: assassin's remedy still makes you immuned to blind, and shockwave in itself is a bad skill, the real problem is shadowstepping), I'd say that I would like it to have SOME changes reverted (at least those 2).

Note that there is no reason to revert it because of PvE. Even though generalisation is bad, I think this may not affect the way of playing of an average PvE player. Splinter wep is still very powerfull and rips through mobs, 3 more seconds won't change it.

Revert some changes, don't do any change reversal if it's for PvE.
For those that will be shocked, note that I am mainly a PvE/AB(= same ) player.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
2) Monks in PvE dont use aegis... they use Healer's Boon + seed of life + healing seed.
Tahlkora, Ogden and Dunkoro use it.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:31 PM // 21:31   #16
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"You will find that [rawr] has won numerous times with the same build. Everyone knows that they run [rawr] spike, yet for MONTHS and MONTHS no one has dared to counter it. This update seems have a significant purpose to prevent any team from winning with rawr-spike this coming monthly. ESPECIALLY since the prizes have been doubled."

From this op poorly worded and elitist rant against pve, one would think that all PVPers are so orginal that you would never encounter the same build twice. Guess not, hmm.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
Most of the time PvE players use full teams of Ursan anyways.
There are a good number of PvE players who like to play their own character rather than use Ursan. I am one who would only use it if I made a story behind why this particular character thought that the "Bear Spirit" was for them. Most of my characters would not use it.

Also, I appreciate Anet's concern for PvE players in this regard.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lutz
It's not an ignorant generalization when it's true.
Rits only used for heals and spirits? Lawl...no.

Some of the other things are true, but Aegis in PvE is great (prot > heals, mkay?)
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15   #19
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This update does WONDERS for PvP and might hurt 1 out of 10 pve'ers SLIGHTLY

it should remain permanently for all the reasons brought up by the OP

PvE'ers have NOTHING to cry about, even if you did use b surge, it is still manageable but isnt IMBALANCED, same with aegis, it isnt like it costs 30 energy and causes exhaustion, its 5 more energy, the 5 more energy from aegis isnt going to cause you to partywipe between groups

beyond the fact that these skill nerfs are absolutely trivial to most pve builds, you have the extremely overpowered pve only skills, pain inverter, save yourselves, theres nothing to fear, cry of pain, norn shout buffs, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc and yes the 123 123 123 123 goredenginegoredenginegoredengine machine that is ursan blessing

WARNING!!! WARNING!!! WARNING!!! GENERALIZATION ALERT!!!!

most pve'ers are pve only and thus DO NOT know the nature of any pvp let alone high end gvg play which has been balanced out greatly by these nerfs and henceforth....should not be upset about this update needing to be permanetely

/signed
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89
This update does WONDERS for PvP and might hurt 1 out of 10 pve'ers SLIGHTLY

it should remain permanently for all the reasons brought up by the OP

PvE'ers have NOTHING to cry about, even if you did use b surge, it is still manageable but isnt IMBALANCED, same with aegis, it isnt like it costs 30 energy and causes exhaustion, its 5 more energy, the 5 more energy from aegis isnt going to cause you to partywipe between groups

beyond the fact that these skill nerfs are absolutely trivial to most pve builds, you have the extremely overpowered pve only skills, pain inverter, save yourselves, theres nothing to fear, cry of pain, norn shout buffs, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc and yes the 123 123 123 123 goredenginegoredenginegoredengine machine that is ursan blessing

WARNING!!! WARNING!!! WARNING!!! GENERALIZATION ALERT!!!!

most pve'ers are pve only and thus DO NOT know the nature of any pvp let alone high end gvg play which has been balanced out greatly by these nerfs and henceforth....should not be upset about this update needing to be permanetely

/signed

Go back to farming fame and stop pretending you understand the playstyle and opinions of 100% of PvEers. KthxBaii.
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